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User blog:Friendlysociopath/My Problems with Link vs Cloud
Do I disagree with who would be the winner? Yes. Do I disagree with their verdict? Actually no. Following the data given by Deathbattle that was really the only conclusion that could be reached. Link would defeat Cloud. However, was all of their data correct? No, which is what I'm gonna blog about- because I'm tired of typing it out over and over again and I admit- it'll be so conveniant to type it once and just be able to link it. Something to understand-''' this is not an article to hate on Deathbattle'. This is an article to show where I disagree with that specific Deathbattle, no more, no less. I welcome any and all feedback, and will reply in kind as needed. Perhaps I made a mistake- it can happen- I'm only human; if so I am man enough to own up to it if I can be proven wrong. For the record: Series = entire FF7 compilation, Game = FF7, movie = Advent Children If I refer to games that aren't FF7 it will normally be by name. As it's a Composite Link I'll simply be refering to Legend of Zelda as... Legend of Zelda! Also, here is the fight itself; figured that should be on here. Problem #1 Composite Link Composite Link is not fair, pure and simple, unless his opponent has the same thing (multiple bodies and timelines) and is given the same deal. The Links are separated by different bodies and even timelines, never has Link canonically held all of his equipment and powers. Some Links have been the "same Link" as demonstrated by Orcarina of Time andMajora's Mask - but the equipment doesn't transfer at all. Composite Link is just as fair as Composite Spiderman - in other words- not fair at all. Composite Link is cheating every match he appears in because he is not canon. Furthermore, they chickened out. If you're gonna use Composite Link, '''use Composite Link'. Don't just pick and choose what equipment he's allowed to have-give him all of it . Picking and choosing makes you appear even less impartial since you've taken it upon yourself to not only break his canon- but to pick his equipment for him as well. Who are you to decide what Link can use and what he can't? Problem #2 Insulting Cloud I am annoyed this stereotype exists and even further annoyed I have to make a section telling people it is wrong because of an "official" debate site; this is less towards Deathbattle and more towards the topic itself- but Deathbattle certainly didn't help the issue since multiple people with little to no knowledge of Cloud started parroting the emo bit around. How am I supposed to regard them as impartial when they constantly insult one of their combatants? Yes I know- it's part of Boomstick's schtick- but they do it constantly to Cloud, it doesn't let up at all; compared to Link getting maybe one or two rips about being a fairy.They refer to Cloud as "emo", not once, but many times; they even bring it into the abilities. What exactly does this word mean? "Emo has been associated with a stereotype that includes being particularly emotional, sensitive, shy, introverted, or angst-ridden." So, how does this apply to Cloud? Is Cloud over-emotional? Sensitive? Shy? Introverted? Angsty? No to the first, Cloud in fact tends to have quite a bit of control over his emotions a substantial amount of the time. Do we see him cry often? Throw rage-fits? No, he's normally extremely calm, even in battle. One of his only signs of panic in all of Advent Children was some eye-twitching when his worst nightmare manifested in front of him. This also applies to his Limit Breaks, we're seen Cloud use them during Advent Children- was he overly emotional while doing so? No, he was perfectly in control. The second is somewhat difficult to tell in his original game. Quite often Cloud will 'shout!' at others but as a text-based game with no voice, it is hard to figure out exactly how angry/sad he was. However, in his other appearances Cloud has not demonstrated to be particularly sensitive to insults or fears. The third is apparently quite untrue, Cloud meets new people all of the time and has no problem with it. He's a veritable people person- he can talk to everyone with almost no problem- hell- I think nearly half the female characters you meet end up with a crush on Cloud. Introverted is a person who enjoys being by themselves more than others. This seems oddly the opposite of Cloud, he who gathers a party around him and willingly lives with Tifa, Barrett, and several children. Not to mention Cloud has zero issues in FF7 traveling the world and meeting people. Angsty- ah- now this is a fun one. Angst is a "great fear" or "depression". Now, which of these does Cloud exhibit? Does he ever reallyshow a great deal of fear? Enough that perhaps he cannot act? No, he does not, Cloud is like most heroes- he overcomes his fear. Is Cloud ever depressed? "AHA!" You may be saying, "He was depressed in Advent Children!" You would be correct, he was somewhat depressed in Advent Children. Not enough to prevent him from ever fighting, or impair his fighting prowess, but he was depressed more than a little. This is character development- not an incredilby strange thing. A city had been destroyed, an uncurable plague was killing those he loved, Cloud had directly been responsible for the death of many innocents, and Cloud himself had lost all of the strength he needed to protect people through that same plague. So really, he should be depressed, that's character development- not a flaw. Do you know what followed that character development? He got over it. So to recap quickly (because this is a stupid problem), there was no real evidence Cloud was "emo" enough to affect him in battle, and the brief bits he had were also resolved. Also, extra disrespect for making Cloud's last scene in his analysis him crying, just to put that final nail in the "insult" coffin. Can't even let him end on a high note. "They made fun of Link too you know." They called him a fairy mi amigo, with Whiz defending Link the entire time, not nearly the same as the constant bashing they gave Cloud. But again,' this is more towards the stereotype in general' than Deathbattle itself. Square Enix has even confirmed several times that Cloud has moved past that small (justified) depression stage and is back to being cheerful. Problem #3 Cloud's Equipment This section will focus specifically on what Cloud was given to use and various statements about it. Cloud was given two materia. Out of the many he could have he was restricted to "Fire" and "Thunder". (Yes, they referred to them as "Firaga" and "Thundaga", which is also wrong as the name of the materia does not change no matter how much you level it up.) I find it suspect that Link was allowed so many of his equipment choices when Cloud was not, why could Link have his pick of necessary toys while Cloud had to be limited? The excuse given was "they're his signature materia" and the Buster Sword was "his signature weapon". Link was given the Golden Gauntlets-those appeared in one game - they're not his signature equipment in the slightest. (Yes yes, Hyrule Warriors now makes that two- that wasn't around back then). Why does this arguement apply to materia and weapons but not his armor anyways? "The best armor is obviously the Ziedrich armor". ''Do tell? The only armor you can come across that isn't the very starting equipment and has exactly zero materia slots is the "best" armor? That sounds like faulty logic when materia does everything that armor does and then a lot more to spare . That was a cheap shot to reduce the amount of materia Cloud could use. The "best defense" is Shield, pure and simple, meaning the "best armor" is any armor with materia slots. Cloud references the Zeidrich armor not once in any of his games/movies/audiobooks- nor can you find it, buy it, or defeat an enemy to obtain it. It can only be stolen from certain enemies. ' Cloud literally cannot obtain that armor without using materia''.'' This is violating canon on their own whim again; and I find it curious every step seemed to have been taken to ensure Cloud could only have Fire and Thunder for his materia. Which reminds me, what makes Fire and Thunder he signature materia? Cloud doesn't even start the game with Fire, why not Ice? Furthermore- since when is ANY of his materia his "signature" materia? Every tutorial for equipping/manipulating materia involves Cloud using materia that is none of those as well. Not to mention Cloud is quite literally required during the course of the game to search out and buy materia so his restriction to Fire and Thunder makes very little sense. Particularly since we see multple times in the entire series that Cloud has access to far more than just those two. And why '''was Cloud using the Buster Sword? Iconic or not, it's not his canon weapon anymore; but apparently they were okay breaking canon to give him that weapon. I happen to think he should be given his latest canon weapon. "But wait- the Fusion Blade has no materia slots at all!" True, it does not; but it is his canon weapon. Picking and choosing equipment makes you appear less impartial, because you specifically chose it. And while it may not have materia slots, note that in Advent Children nobody present who used materia had slots either- materia slots are a game mechanic (Because what does Red XIII actually wear that has slots? ) And to add to that, Cloud's first response on finding enemies was to go get his materia, meaning one way or another- he can still use it. Yuffie mentions this in the movie as well, she was bringing Cloud materia so he could use them. Furthermore, and yes, we're going there, Zack Fair used the Buster Sword too. Was he restricted to only 2 materia slots? Nope, in the newer entry of the same series, Zack is able to equip whatever materia he wants - regardless of his weapon. Oh, and don't forget in Dirge of Cerberus Vincent was just equipping them on a keychain - good thing we're concerned about materia slots. And finally, remember Sephiroth? And his stupid-long Masamune? Remember how it has 6 materia slots- because that swords totally has 6 materia slots on it. Another statement from the Deathbattle group, "Cloud tries to restrict his use of materia because creating them harms the planet." Now hold on a second, in the words of (Captain!) Jack Sparrow, "Let us analyze that claim for a moment." The "creation" of materia can be entirely natural. Materia itself is created by the planet- it does not harm it in the slightest. Cloud obtains several such materia during the course of the game . Shinra creating it could be considered harmful as it is unnatural- but what does that have to do with Cloud using it? It would seem to have nothing to do with Cloud using it at all. Cloud, in fact, remarks that the only reason he would discard materia would be if he had "too much" and so would "return it to the planet". Too much, for the record, is 200 separate materia. Does the use of materia harm the planet? Again, no. Bugenhagen is the only character to even imply this, and it is a mistranslation from the original Japanese script; he is specifically referring to Shinra using the Huge Materia as glorified bombs on Meteor ; not a blanket "all materia use is bad". In fact, even in the translated version, he still points out it's Shinra and the Big Materia; just less specifically. This line has been taken out of context and used to infer Cloud doesn't like to use materia when it's not at all what Bugenhagen was talking about. Yes, I have heard that in Dirge of Ceberus Cloud claims materia-use harms the planet. But despite looking through multiple scripts I have never found the responsible line, so I am frankly assuming this is something taken out of context like Bugenhangen's line. Furthermore- why would it be an issue for Cloud in a battle where he's possibly not even on his planet? Why would it be an issue at all anyways? Many characters have powers and abilities they prefer not to use if they can help it- but then they cross that line and use it when necessary. Is a fight for his life not worth it? Problem #4 Advantages and Disadvantages Link Advantage- "he has an unpredictable fighting style". I would like to know the base of this claim. Does Link use some manner of exotic style of fighting that nobody has used before him? Does he do unpredictable things like feints? Does he have some unusual weapon or ability to make his fighting style hard to follow? No, no, and no. He uses a sword and shield, his moves are extremely straightforwards, and he's not extremely fast- or a teleporter- or rubber or anything else that makes him unusual. Is he more agile or strong than a normal human? Oh sure- but that's not unpredictable at all for Cloud. Advantage- "he's an expert at finding weakness". Interesting, how so? Was he able to pinpoint weak spots and hit those to weaken the creature? What a coincidence, Cloud does that too. Several bosses have specific weaknesses Cloud can target to make them easier to defeat by taking out key parts. And unlike Link, Cloud has never needed a fairy around to give him hints, just pointing that out. Advantage- "He's a smarter fighter." Again, how so? Because he uses extra items given to him in the game to make fighting the monsters easier? What a coincidence, Cloud does that too; it's the entire point of equipping weapons /armor /accessories and gaining materia. Is it because Link analyzes his opponent in battle to decide on a course of action? What a coincidence, Cloud does that too; many bosses in FF7 require different strategies to deal with successfully rather than just spam "attack". Advantage- "Can fight up close or at range". ''What a coincidence, '''Cloud does that too.' He uses materia to hit enemies he can't reach- hell, at some points he uses his sword to do it too. Advantage- "Generations of experience". Quantify this, I dare you, find a way to actually put any sort of number to this beyond just saying "It's an advantage". An advantage you can't put the slightest number or stat to is worthless. It seems like many of Link's advantages apply just as much to Cloud; why then are they "advantages" for Link and not mentioned at all for Cloud? Now let's dive into the disadvantages listed for Link... none were listed... okay then; no diving into something not listed in the battle- guess Link has no possible disadvantages. Cloud Disadvantage- "Jenova cells extremely vulnerable to Master Sword's magic". Funny how another (Captain!) Jack Sparrow quote comes to mind, "You made that up". The Master Sword has never targeted "evil cells" in the entirety of Legend of Zelda. That was made up by Deathbattle. Also, in addition to that point, "Jenova cells are evil", do tell? How is an object with no consciousness and no thought supposed to be "evil"? Jenova was certainly evil, but why are her cells evil? The cells themselves have no thoughts or control of their own. Sephiroth can use his powers to control those with the cells, true, but that hardly makes them evil either. Would using a cybernetic limb made by a bad person count as "evil"? The limb has just as much of a soul, moral alignment, and consciousness as Jenova cells. Also, it seems Deathbattle forgot something, Mako energy is what is used to make SOLDIERS- it's repeated a ton throughout the game- that's why their eyes glow blue. Jenova cells are extra, Zack can deflect bullets from multiple shooters and Cloud could even use the Buster Sword without a single Jenova cell in his body. The Jenova cells may well make you better than a regular SOLDIER, but they're far from everything. Even with the "evil Jenova cells being purified" (which already happened to Cloud anyways so you'd be purifying an already purified Cloud) Cloud would still be stronger and faster than Link without items. And now a word from Billy Mays, "But wait- there's more!" Would you like to know what the Master Sword targets? Demons. Not something as insubstantial and metaphorical as Evil, Demons,' as shown in every Japanese release it is "Demon's Bane" not "Evil's Bane"'. It is a weapon to kill Demons, not Evil; now tell me- is Jenova a Demon? Is Cloud a Demon? I didn't think so. Deathbattle was fine with not checking that I guess, it's been that way since the very beginning of the Legend of Zelda franchise. Disadvantage- "More predictable fighting style". Really? How so? In Advent Children alone Cloud demonstrated far more moves and greater technical ability than Link ever has in all of his games; not to mention thinking way outside of the box for several scenes. Disadvantage- "Cloud fights with brute force"... now I will admit, out of all the things described in this entire fight- that's one of the few parts that actually makes me angry. That was downplay, straight-up, no evidence, no regard for canon, downplay of Cloud. Fights with brute force? Cloud dual-wields in Advent Children, dual-wielding is a far more more technical style than sword and board could ever be! Did they even attempt to study swordplay? Like at all? This is such a downright farce of a point I find myself entirely stumped for why they brought it up. Under what premise does Cloud fight with brute force and Link by comparision does not? ' Now, they actually did give Cloud a few advantages: Advantage- ''"Naturally faster and stronger". Well that's awfully vague, how much faster and stonger? I have no idea because '''they didn't talk about speed for either guy. This seems like a point that's extremely important in a fight! This brings me back to a Link advantage- "Support items match Cloud's superhuman abilities". So, you're telling me the Pegasus Boots, the things that make Link run as fast as an arrow- makes him just as fast as Cloud? That's what I was told, must be true- they presented no evidence to make me think otherwise. Advantage- "Ribbon". Interesting, they allow the game mechanics of Ribbon to be valid; shouldn't a lot of emphasis have been placed then on the Limit Break that literally auto-defeats your opponent? That move is just as canon as the rest of them. Problem #5 Curious Omittance I find it immensely curious how they simply didn't mention quite a few things. For example, speed, a category they actually insisted Cloud held the "natural" advantage on was not mentioned at all for Cloud during his analysis. The closest thing to his speed was a mention from Omnislash, and all they said was "a move so quick and powerful it practically guarantees victory". Cloud had less information presented about him than Link, why not drop a few feats or information about his speed? So how much faster is Cloud? Well let's see, an arrow can travel at approximately 270 fps, or 184 mph. Bullets move, on average, 2,700 fps, or 1,840 mph. Cloud is capable of moving his entire body faster than bullets, Link is capable, with his Pegasus boots, of matching the speed of an arrow. Well geez, it looks like Cloud is a lot faster than Link is doesn't it? '''With roughly a 10x speed advantage, it looks like it'd be damn near impossible for Link to ever land a hit of any kind on Cloud. For the record, even having only a 2x speed advantage would make it ludicrous for the slower person to land a hit. So just to recap, one guy is literally 10x faster than the other, across the board, not just in running speed or anything; and the slower guy is also entirely unable to slow down or otherwise bring his enemy to a halt in order to land a hit on them. '''Virtually no effort was put into even attempting to point this out. Alright then, what about Cloud's limit break that simply defeats his enemy? We're not gonna bring that up either? Why not? You had plenty of extra time to talk about Cloud compared to how much screentime Link recieved. And you've acknowledged you're considering game mechanics when you talk about the Ribbon and materia slots. Alright then, guess we don't care about the limit break Link has no counter to. What else? Oh right, instead of trying to actually use the good materia, Cloud was restricted- but I'd just like to list all of the materia that Cloud would have access to and could use against Link. Oh, and I'll even remove sidequests- that's right- this is all materia Cloud simply comes across while undergoing the canon events of his game. That would be what the giant chest is for. Materia: Spells Barrier: Protective buffs Comet: Comet Destruct: Removes barriers and magical defenses Earth: Quake Fire: Fire (remember this for later) Gravity: Demi magic Ice: Ice Lightning: Lightning Mystify: Status effects on the enemy Poison: Poisons enemy Seal: Puts an enemy to sleep Shield: Makes Cloud immune to all physical and elemental damage Time: Haste, Slow, Stop Transform: Mini or Frog your enemy Ultima: Ultima Now, out of all the materia listed, how many does Link have a counter to? His arrows and boomerang would be Reflectable with Barrier. He couldn't block every Comet without taking damage. He can't stop Cloud from removing his magical defenses via Destruct. His only counter to Earthquake would be jumping (which is a horrible idea). He's got no counter at all to Gravity. He can't resist most of the status effects Cloud can inflict. He has no way of defeating the Shield materia. Link is not immune to being Stopped or Slowed, and if Cloud cast Haste he'd be even faster. And Ultima goes around/through all barriers. Oh, another item that I had previously forgotten- they used Dissidia to say Cloud only had certain kinds of materia. Interesting indeed, they were willing to count Dissidia for that alone but instead omitted: Limit Breaks being spammable Cloud being able to virtually fly Cloud being able to run straight up buildings with no issue Ex Mode allowing Cloud to summon the Ultimate Weapon Ex Revenge allowing Cloud to stop time if hit Magic not being linked to materia in that game Now, why would you be willing to take only the nerfs Cloud got from Dissidia but none of the buffs? In regards to canon I would agree that Dissidia is sketchy, but you're using Composite Link so canon should be out the window for Cloud too. Speaking of which- why is Link Composite and Cloud isn't? Cloud gets feats and abilities from multiple games like Tactics and Kingdom Hearts- but Cloud is instead going to be restricted to (Deathbatttle's choice of) one canon? This comes off as a bit of a double-standard does it not? So to recap- every method Cloud could have had for possibly winning the fight was either downplayed, removed, or outright ignored during his analysis portion of the video. Problem #6 Assumptions and Inaccuracies Most of any fictional debate revolves around interpretations. However, many of Deathbattle's interpretations for this one do not add up at all- indeed- several things they said/used were very innacurate. Case 1- The Golden Gauntlets: Assumption- Golden Gauntlets is a flat increase to Link's strength. This was entirely unproven, Link only could ever exhibit that strength while lifting the Pillars; there is no reason to believe that strength goes into anything else. Link does no extra damage to enemies after recieving these guantlets, they're entirely unproven to augment his strength in any way but lifting. Does a key that opens a certain lock work on every lock? No? Does Link's magic that affects one type of barrier work on every type of barrier? No? Does a monster than can swim through rock possess the same ability for steel? No? Then why do the Golden Gauntlets get to be an exception? '''Beyond that though- give me a calc for how much strength Link can put behind his blows based on this information, go ahead. Except you can't, because '''lifting strength is hardly related at all to striking strength. Assumption- Golden Gauntlets make Link more durable. Also unproven, they in no way give Link extra damage reduction either. "No they have a calc that says he can withstand X pressure!" Ah, mon ami, there is a problem with that. The rock itself would never be able to withstand that pressure either. If you want to use physics you can't simply pick and choose which parts you accept and which you don't. The rock would shatter around Link's fists before it could be lifted like that, go with what you can prove- the magic gauntlets let Link lift certain rocks. Case 2- Speed As stated above in the Omittance Section, Link's Pegasus Boots top him out at moving as fast as an arrow. Cloud can move faster than bullets- it is outright false to say the Pegasus Boots allow him to keep up with Cloud. Also, did we forget the Pegasus Boots are not permanent? Link can't spam that- they need to charge and they can't go forever. So not only is Cloud 10x faster all of the time, when Link's Pegasus Boots are on cooldown (for lack of a better term) Cloud will hold an even greater speed advantage. Oh, and let's not forget the Pegasus Boots are specifically for running, meaning it in no way applies to Link's actual combat speed when it comes to swinging his sword and moving his shield. Speed alone makes this an incredibly hard sell for Link to win, Cloud has far greater speed feats and Link has no way to actually slow him down to try to hit him. Again, being just 2x faster is a death sentence. For example: Say two people are of the same speed. One attacks, the other defends. Since they're the same speed they can both do roughly one action in the amount of time the other can. 1 attack 1 defense, 1 defense 1 attack. You attack I defend, I attack You defend. No Hits. That would be where techniques, shields, and other variables come into play, because we're even in speed. Now, say one is 2x faster. They can attack and block within the same amount of time it takes the slower guy to attack once. And this disparity will only grow as the battle goes on. 1-2, 2-4, 3-6, 4-8, 5-10 and so on. You attack I defend I attack. Hit. I attack You defend I attack again. Hit. Now, let's examine Link vs Cloud. 1-10, 2-20, 3-30. Link attacks Cloud defends Cloud attacks x9. Cloud attacks Link defends Cloud attacks 9x again. Every exchange marks several hits for Cloud and none at all for Link. No amount of demonstrated technique or strategy can surpass this speed advantage. "Hylian shield can't be broken and will block attacks!" Yes- any attack that hits it- sure. But with a massive speed advantage Cloud could simply attack around the shield. Even being incredibly optimistic and saying half of Cloud's attacks hit the shield still leaves Link taking 4-5 hits every exchange, with Cloud recieving none in return. And even IF the Golden Gauntlets made Link unable to be harmed immediately by Cloud's attacks, over time they would add up; especially Limit Breaks. One punch to your face does not unduly trouble you, ten in rapid succession will leave a much greater impression. Heck, if the battle goes on long enough eventually Link would take a shot to the eye or throat- you don't shake that off no matter what pressure calcs you may have. Case 3- Fire Materia I told you to remember this didn't I? During the animation we see Cloud throwing fireballs at Link- tell me- where in the FF7 game does using the Fire materia make fireballs? It doesn't, the fire simply originates on the enemy. If you're going to be using Fire from a different part of the series- why is Cloud not being given the proper equipment and feats he's earned from the rest of the series? Yet again, picking and choosing what parts of canon they want to stick to entirely on their own whim. Speaking of which, I saw Fire materia being used in Advent Children, it blew up 3 entire floors of a building- for it being one of Cloud's "signature materia" I'd have thought that worth mentioning since they very clearly never brought it up during the battle. Case 4- Cloud Doesn't Like Using Materia They tried, with very skimpy and little-understood evidence, to say not only should Cloud not have his materia, but wouldn't want to use it. This is incredibly innacurate. Cloud begins the game with materia. SOLDIERS use materia all of the time. Cloud is the tutorial on how to actually equip materia- but wait- not only does he teach you how to equip materia, he'll tell you in the tutorials abbout many different kinds of materia- by name, for example he specifically points out Reflect will knock a spell back at the enemy. Oh, and Cloud even specifically states that to be strong you need materia and to equip it correctly. Moving on, Cloud is required at several points in the game to purchase and use materia, it's not optional. Cloud actively goes on quests to find new materia. Cloud and his companions reference using materia quite often. When Cloud's materia is stolen he immediately sets out to get it back in the game- he outright will not leave until he reclaims his materia. Cloud's entire universe revolves around materia and Mako energy. Cloud in the audiobooks is accepted by the entire party as being the most proficient in materia use. Cloud's first response to danger is to go get his materia. One of his friends had a plan when Cloud is in trouble is to bring him materia. Cloud has no problem with using materia. The stuff was removed in Advent Children so people couldn't ask why Cloud didn't use X materia. Case 5- Jenova Cells There is no proof whatsoever that the Master Sword could target Jenova Cells. And even less proof that it should target the cells. That was entirely made up by Deathbattle- they actually fabricated advantages for a character. If they want to go that way I can say Cloud can defy physics however he pleases (and can cite that too btw) and Link can't harm him because Cloud defies physics. Case 6- Link Actually Hurt Cloud Interesting, Link was able to actually hurt Cloud? What's Link's best striking feat again? Because Cloud has survived: Being shot point-blank in the face by bullets that go through steel. Tanked being thrown into steel hard enough to leave a crater as deep as he is tall. Survived flying through a fireball that was melting steel and blowing up buildings. Has survived falling from above terminal velocity many times- with his Fusion Blade that wieghs at least 500 pounds I might add. So, exactly what is Link's claim to fame that allows him to overcome how durable Cloud is? Yes, obviously for the terms of the battle they were going with the Golden Gauntlets- but what about beyond that? Tell me how strong Link normally is so I can appreciate the strength buff. Oh and one final note They actually didn't do a calc on how strong Cloud is, because even with Link's calc of being able to tank lifting that granite, he isn't durable enough to not be affected by Cloud's attacks as of Advent Children. Cloud being able to slice apart concrete and steel in Advent Children actually makes him able to output more force than that calc said Link could tank. Right, so the first thing I'll be pointing out is a simple thing- how pressure works. The weight of that obsidian pillar would be spread across the surface area of Link it's touching, his gauntleted hands. This is the only part of him that actually benefits from the pressure calc- the magical armored hands actually tanking the pressure. No matter how heavy that pillar may be, Link is only that durable on the part of him touching it- which also involves his magical golden gauntlets- so only his protected hands and some of his arms have access to this level of durability; it is not a uniform "His entire body can withstand this much force!" That's not how pressure works at all. Does the rest of his body get durability? Yes, but it would be less than what his gauntleted hands can take- which would be the "maximum" or the "largest extreme" he can deal with. That's what PSI means, it's a uniform amount of pressure over a given area. KSI is just PSI in the thousands (think kilometers and meters). The obelisk looks like it weighs approximately 950 tons, a thousand tons sounds better but it's much more reasonable for it to be around 950 tons (I used 952.54 metric tons myself, or 952,536.64 kg). To convert newtons into pounds-force, you can multiply it by 0.22481. To find out how many pounds-force is equal to newtons, you divide it by 0.22481. 9.81 N/kg is gravity btw- (thanks Alpha). 9.81 N/kg * 952,536.642283328897405338998 kg. = 9,344,384.46079945648354637557038 N. 9344384.46079945648354637557038 N / 0.0224 m^2 = 417,160,020.57140430730117748082053571, which is equal to 60,503.9457677099417 psi, or 61 ksi. Link, on the area of his Golden Gauntlets, can tank approximately 417 MPa (Mega Pascals) of pressure- or 61 KSI (pounds per square inch in the thousands). Cloud and Sephiroth cut through pieces of building, concrete, and steel- with one arm at times. Would you like to know the pressure required to cut through industrial-strength steel like I-beams? With a Brinell Hardness number of around 120 (at the least) they can commonly withstand as much as 430 MPa (Mega Pascals). Or 62 KSI. (Special thanks to Mea for helping me convert). Yes, with one hand, no limit breaks, and his incomplete sword; Cloud can match even the durability given to Link by the Golden Gauntlets. With both hands, the completed blade, and a limit break- Cloud can overcome Link's durability even if he struck him dead-on those gauntlets. How durable is Link? Many people who use that calc have little idea of how durable it makes Link- so I thought I'd point it out. A base human would find him nearly impossible to harm without extreme weaponry. However, anyone who can cut through steel: Cloud, Dante, Raiden, and so on, would be able to exert enough pressure to cut and harm Link even with that GG calc. He's durable enough that his gauntleted hands could stop blows that cut through iron and stone, but people who can cut building-level steel plates can still pierce even those. Years later and I'm still here, so I thought I'd add another section. What if they Included Breath of the Wild? Truthfully, I would still say that's a Cloud win, though Breath of the Wild would narrow the disparity by a wide margin. Link's hax abilities such as Stasis would not be effective against Cloud and otherwise most of Link's weapons and strength aren't extremely noteworthy. I will say one thing BotW does bring to the table is finally giving Link speeds enough to be a player in the superhuman game. The problem is, they picked a great/poor way to do so. Flurry Rush is an ability Link can use to react to being attacked, slowing time from his perspective and counterattacking very quickly. By itself this sounds simple- but how the game presents it throws a wrench into the formula. Say Link is attacking an enemy in the rain, with explosives, while lightning strikes: The rain will slow down only slighty The enemy will slow down a bit more than the rain The explosion will slow even more than the enemy The lightning will apparently stand still This is the exact opposite of how it would work. '''Rain isn't faster than lightning, yet it apparently appears to be so according to Breath of the Wild. Same with explosions too. As such, I find myself unable to say, with confidence, that the higher results are intentional. And that's the rub- any given time he uses it- he disproves/proves his speed at the same time. It's a giant contradiction. Now let me be clear, '''I have no problem with time dilation not working on the environment, such as rain not stopping in Skyrim, and not slowing in Metal Gear Rising Revengeance; such a thing is an oversight- not a contradition so far as I'm concerned. BotW has the opposite issue, they slowed down everything, but at different speeds that contradict one another. As such, I would personally limit Link to how fast he moves in comparison to rain and enemies- which does leave him as supersonic and possibly hypersonic, so not bad at all. What about deflecting lasers? I'm not the first, and probably not the last, person to point out "laser" in fiction doesn't have to mean a lightspeed attack. Something to keep in mind is that "laser beam" and the like can easily reference the 'shape and brightness' of an attack rather than the 'speed' of an attack. I hold this true across all media, not just LoZ. Calling something a laser and mentioning light just isn't enough to say without doubt you proved it was a lightspeed attack. Category:Blog posts